[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152710]An all around bad guy will not make it into the hall of fame. It definately doesn't hurt. But stats don't lie, even though he's never won a super bowl he is among the ranks of the all time best quarterbacks. It also doesn't hurt that he's on my favorite team.[/QUOTE]
Yeah i cant deny that Kelly is one of the better quaterbacks of all time, he just doesnt make my list. Going to 4 straight super bowls is impressive even though they lost them all. If im not mistaken their kicker blew one of the games for them. i wish the lions had a qb i could put on my list but they havent had a good qb in a very long time.
Flutie will not be in the HOF but Warner most certainly will. Warner has broken & set & reset many records in his time.
Terry Bradshaw was the de facto leader on & off the field of the Pittsburgh Steelers in the mid-late 70s. He led his team to 4 Superbowls in 5 years! Some of the greatest games were against another classic quarterback of the era -- Dallas Cowboys' Roger Staubach.
If they put Doug flutie in it would do an injust to lots of players who won't get into the hall of fame. Besides that I wanted to comment on 2 awards that were given out this year. The first being the Coach of the Year: How did marvin Lewis get this? I thought allot of coaches were much more worthy i.e. Jim Caldwell,Brad Childress, even Jeff Fisher would have been cool considering how bad their season started.Comeback Player of the Year: How could you give it to Tom Brady. He missed last year sure but he was a great player before and without injury he wouldn't have skipped a beat. My choices would have been Cedric Benson as he started off being this great running back and years later now he put up great numbers. Or even Ricky Williams sepparated had a great season at 33.
[QUOTE=mr.unamazing;152742]Comeback Player of the Year: How could you give it to Tom Brady. He missed last year sure but he was a great player before and without injury he wouldn't have skipped a beat. My choices would have been Cedric Benson as he started off being this great running back and years later now he put up great numbers. Or even Ricky Williams sepparated had a great season at 33.[/QUOTE]
Tom Brady was a comeback player due to injury. Ricky Williams was a comeback player because he finally passed a drug test.
Ricky Williams has been back in the NFL for the last 3 years and hasn't failed a drug test in quite along time. You have to admit that he had a good season stepping in for Ronnie Brown especially at his age.
[QUOTE=mr.unamazing;152794]Ricky Williams has been back in the NFL for the last 3 years and hasn't failed a drug test in quite along time. You have to admit that he had a good season stepping in for Ronnie Brown especially at his age.[/QUOTE]
But my point is that he failed one in the first place. I would never give a comeback award to someone coming back from drug problems and rehab opposed to someone who came back from injury and a different type of rehab.
He did do quite well when he came back. I don't even want to think what kind of career he would've had if he had stayed clean the entire time. It's a shame he wasted most of his career. He was a great player at Texas and showed a lot of potential.
[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152594]I personally think Jim Kelly, Steve Young, and John Elway are the three best of all time.[/QUOTE]
Jim Kelly isnt in the top 20.
[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152864]Jim Kelly is absolutely in the top 20. the stats speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Bradshaw, Montana, Favre, Manning, Brady, Young,Elway, Warner, Rothlesberger, Marino, Aikman, Staubach, Namath, Starr, Esiason, Bledsoe, Testerverde, tarketon,moon, simms
theres 20 better qbs and there are plenty more
Warren Moon and Drew Bledsoe were not better. Bledsoe may not even be a hall of famer. Roethlesberger is at the begining of his career you never know. Kurt Warner played well half the years kelly did. The rest may be better than him except maybe Tarketon. You cannot put a 28 year old quarterback on that list. Warren moon was great. But not as good as Kelly. Testeverde was not as good either. You are very misguided.
I'm glad someone finally brought up Marino. He was the quarterback God of his era and if he would have had a team with a running game, we'd be talking about the other quarterbacks as second rate peers.
Sadly, he never brought a championship to Miami and thus will never be included amongst the greats. That aside, his numbers speak volumes in the record books and he will always be in my top 5.
[QUOTE]Bradshaw, Montana, Favre, Manning, Brady, Young,Elway, Warner, Rothlesberger, Marino, Aikman, Staubach, Namath, Starr, Esiason, Bledsoe, Testerverde, tarketon,moon, simms[/QUOTE][B]Greatness...
[/B][B]Rothlesberger [/B]- Too soon to say.[B]
Esiason[/B] - Good but not great and within the scale of his peers, those who played that type of quarterback in that generation. Not top ten of the 80's-90's in my opinion.
[B]Bledsoe[/B] - Failure. Failure. Failure (Things are measured differently up "here" these days.)
[B]Testerverde[/B] - One of my favorite college players. Too bad he couldn't have stayed there for say, 8 extra years...and not got drafted by the Bucs.
[B]Moon[/B] - Great show. Always fun to watch. High scoring games. Bad teams. Hard to say where he rates in the big picture of that era.
But I will go out on a limb and say all the above were better than Kelly. Why is Kelly even being talked about? Easy...Thurman Thomas.
Kelly is being talked about because I brought him up. I think he's the best because he was eeqaully as dominant in the NFL NCAA and the USFL He is well known as one of the best quarterbacks who made all of his receivers good.
[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152879]Kelly is being talked about because I brought him up. I think he's the best because he was eeqaully as dominant in the NFL NCAA and the USFL He is well known as one of the best quarterbacks who made all of his receivers good.[/QUOTE]
Jim Kelly = big game choke artist of the millennia.
I particularly don't like him because I am a fan of AFC football and I had to grow up watching him choke when it counted, again and again, and again, and again.
Here is my challenge: Can someone name a team leader, or team captain of any major American sports team who has choked so hard in the ultimate game, so many times? (Feel free to go back to the Pilgrims if you must...)
Quarterbacks are the "deciders." They can win or lose the game on their "own" just because of the charisma they bring to the field when the clock is ticking down and their team looks to be done. Don't tell Joe Montana that a Quarterback does not decide the outcome of a game in the final minutes...Don't tell that to Steve Young.
So, I challenge you. Name one all time loser who is a bigger loser than Jim Kelly.
Only empirical facts will be accepted.
And let's remember. When you finish second in the Super Bowl, you are the first loser...
jim didn't choke against the Giants when Scott Norwood misssed the field goal as time expired. Warren Moon gave up the biggest comeback after a 35-3 lead. he has an awful playoff record 3-7 Frank Tarkenton lost three superbowls and has an awful rating.
[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152883]jim didn't choke against the Giants when Scott Norwood misssed the field goal as time expired. [/QUOTE]
Kelly was 18 for 30. No passing touchdowns. The "team leader" and Hall of Famer was buoyed by Thomas.
You are blaming the loss on the lowly field goal kicker? Yikes. I guess desperate times call for desperate measures...
That aside, let's name someone that choked worse on more occasions - just for fun.
Anyone? Anyone?
Jim Kelly represents class and just because he didn't win a championship doesn't make him not a hall of famer. As you stated Marino was the best and made the hall of fame. Jim Kelly was great everywhere he played and like Marino shouldn't be judged on losing so many times but more on the fact that they made the game 5 years in a row, which is insane. It's almost crazy they couldn't ever win the championship. I personnally couldn't think of a football player who chocked more but I could think of a basketball player. How about Karl Malone and the fact that they never won a championship after all those years.
Dan Marino also doens't have the best playoff record. He's 8-10 all time in the playoffs. That means 10 years in the playoffs he didn't win the super bowl. Thats' not great either. No doubting that he's the best ever.
[QUOTE=mr.unamazing;152886]Jim Kelly represents class [/QUOTE]
I will agree with this statement. Doesn't change the fact that he is the biggest failed leader in sports history, just based on the grandeur and repetitiveness of his losses.
[quote]How about Karl Malone and the fact that they never won a championship after all those years.[/quote]The Bills choked vs. 3 different teams over 4 seasons in the biggest, most watched game in American sports. The Jazz lost to an NBA dynasty twice. Not the same type of epic proportions, but a good start if we are making a list.
I did name two people over there. Donovan Mcnabb and Tony Romo aren't good in the playoffs either. In the Buffalo Bills super bowl game against the New york giants Jim Kelly drove them down the field with 2:16 like a real leader scrambling and got them to the 29 yard line with that limited time. Scott Norwood then missed the game winning field goal wide right. I don't know who else you could blame that loss on. Kelly did all he could.
[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152890] In the Buffalo Bills super bowl game against the New york giants Jim Kelly drove them down the field with 2:16 like a real leader scrambling and got them to the 29 yard line with that limited time. Scott Norwood then missed the game winning field goal wide right. I don't know who else you could blame that loss on. Kelly did all he could.[/QUOTE]
So you are basically saying he could not get his team into the end zone, to cap off a victory and left it to a guy that logs 6 minutes of clock time playing football a year to win the biggest game of the year? I just want to tap into your logic. Help me here.
The next three they were not the better team. We can all agree on that. But he drove all the way down the field with 2:16 so they could kick a game winning field goal. Which isn't totally absurd. I mean in football it's a pretty normal thing when you're down by three or less with very little time to get a field goal. And yes he relied on a kicker who's only job that he gets paid tons of money for is to be able to kick balls from far distances through field goal posts. This was not his fault at all. He did work in that super bowl. Warren Moon choked just as much and so did Tarkenton.
In that big list of quarterbacks how is Dan Fouts name missing, he was amazing. Also Sam Norwood barring that kick had a great career for the Buffalo Bills. He made the Pro Bowl, and helped make some clutch kicks for them like in the AFC championship game agianst Denver. It's kind of sad that a guy who started off as un drafted and unknown became so great and then because of one kick was hated.
[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152903]The next three they were not the better team. We can all agree on that. But he drove all the way down the field with 2:16 so they could kick a game winning field goal. Which isn't totally absurd. I mean in football it's a pretty normal thing when you're down by three or less with very little time to get a field goal. And yes he relied on a kicker who's only job that he gets paid tons of money for is to be able to kick balls from far distances through field goal posts. This was not his fault at all. He did work in that super bowl. Warren Moon choked just as much and so did Tarkenton.[/QUOTE]
2:16 is more than enough time to score a touchdown. The fact that they had to settle for a field goal kind of says that he didn't do enough work.
When you're up uby one point. You're looking to run the clock out and get points that will help you win the game. Usually you're trying to get down the film and waste some time while you're at it. They were in field goal range and kicked a field gal. Kelly rallied them down teh field.
Are you saying Tom Brady didn't do enough in the super bowl when Vinitiari kicked the game winner?
[QUOTE=andrewsz1991;152928]When you're up uby one point. You're looking to run the clock out and get points that will help you win the game. Usually you're trying to get down the film and waste some time while you're at it. They were in field goal range and kicked a field gal. Kelly rallied them down teh field.
Are you saying Tom Brady didn't do enough in the super bowl when Vinitiari kicked the game winner?[/QUOTE]
Was the field goal from the Bills kicked as time expired? No. The whole point of kicking a game-winning field goal is to not give the other team enough time to come back and try to score. That way you know it's a game-winner, not an eventual game-winner.
If I remember correctly, Vinitieri kicked the field goal as time expired (for XXXVI) and the Pats won by 3. If he had missed, overtime. It was not a win-lose situation for them as much as the XXV situation.
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